It's terrible when you consider how badly kneecapped the 8600g is. If you EVER want to expand in the future, youll need a different CPU to get proper PCIe support. Absolute insanity. Reply
AMD's Ryzen Mobile Platform I/O connectivity support pales in comparison to Intel's mobile platform support for I/O and PCIe Lanes and PCIe generation support. And the reason that Ryzen 8000G's PCIe lane support is so lacking is because that's just the mobile APUs packaged for socket/AM5 MBs. And just look how long it took AMD to get USB4 supported and even the earlier USB standards supported. The Tech Press appears to be ignoring listing the Desktop APUs platform I/O support for the most part and that's a definite differentiating factor to be included when doing any "Best" CPU/APU/SOC comparison/roundup.
The Tech Press also loves to use Blender 3D CPU cores only Cycles rendering to test CPU cores only and really Blender 3D's CPU cores only Cycles rendering is the fallback in case there's no Cycles iGPU/dGPU capable rendering devices discovered by Blender 3D. So Blender 3D's iGPU/dGPU accelerated Cycles rendering can only be enabled if there is iGPU/dGPU compute API supported as the Cycles Renderer supports Ray Tracing and Ray Tracing on any iGPU or dGPU is a GPU compute workload. So Blender 3D used to support OpenCL as the GPU Compute API but ever since Blender 3D 3.0/Later editions arrived the Blender Foundation dropped supporting OpenCL as the iGPU/dGPU compute API and Blender 3.0/later only supports CUDA and Apple's metal. And AMD has its ROCm/HIP to take the CUDA/PTX/whatever and convert that to a form that can be executed on Radeon iGPUs and dGPUs but Currently ROCm/HIP is not supported for Radeon iGPUs and even the Radeon consumer dGPUs have very limited ROCm/HIP supported. Now Intel's got its OneAPI/Level-0 to do the same for Intel's iGPUs/dGPUs as AMD's ROCm/HIP but unlike AMD Intel's OneAPI/Level-0 is supported on Intel's iGPUs and dGPUs.
So some very important creative workloads on Windows and Linux utilize iGPU and dGPU compute to accelerate Ray Tracing Calculations and other Calculations on GPUs. And Ray Tracing Calculations can be done on CPU cores and GPU shader cores and now there's even dedicated Ray Tracing cores/units on some newer iGPU/dGPUs to do the Ray Tracing calculations more quickly. But in order to do general math workloads on iGPUs and dGPUs for some Applications requires either OpenCL or CUDA and for Apple that's Metal that's both a Graphics and Compute API for Apple Silicon/Earlier. The Blender Foundation uses CUDA for Non Apple hardware now instead of OpenCL and so that lack of Radeon iGPU ROCm/HIP support affects Blender GPU accelerated Cycles rendering. And so for AMD's APUs there's only the CPU cores Cycles rendering while for Intel the OneAPI/Level-0 is supported for Intel's iGPUs/dGPUs and works on Windows and Linux. Reply
Correction to be made to the article: as far as I know, Phoenix silicon is not Zen 4+, just regular Zen 4, and Zen 4+ does not exist in any way.
It would also be good to note that the Ryzen AI NPU in the Ryzen 8000G desktop is the "same" one as the Ryzen 8000 mobile series: 16 TOPs, up from originally 10 TOPs. All of these (8000G/8000 mobile/7000 mobile) Phoenix chips are the same, so either AMD increased the clocksped of the NPU in the 2024 releases or enabled more subunits that maybe were originally disabled for yield purposes.Reply
"Correction to be made to the article: as far as I know, Phoenix silicon is not Zen 4+, just regular Zen 4, and Zen 4+ does not exist in any way."
Thanks. That was an editing error and has been fixed.
"Phoenix chips are the same, so either AMD increased the clocksped of the NPU in the 2024 releases or enabled more subunits that maybe were originally disabled for yield purposes."
This is correct. The NPU is the same. AMD just significantly bumped up its clockspeeds for the Ryzen Mobile 8040 (and 8000G) family.Reply
Awesome - thanks Ryan! There's not a huge market currently for the NPU (Intel or AMD or otherwise) on Windows 11, but as always, that will change in time. I'm actually thinking within a couple years,Reply
So the NPU is DSP embedded in processing fabric? Someone please let us know what an NPU processing block entails in terms of ASIC/mcu . . . appreciate. mbReply
The best value is a terrible pick. The 8600g can hardly play games outside of 720p, and you can easily get a i3+1660/30506g combo that will obliterate it in performance and future upgradeability. Reply
May as well offer up a ryzen 3300, since both seem to be unobtanium.
For budget users, buying a new CPU every 2-3 years is out of the question. Most of these guys are still using pre skylake quad cores. Buying multiple new CPUs for a platform is the realm of tech enthusiasts with tons of money to burn.
Not to mention, you could always get an i7/i9 to replace that i3 later , and said CPU will be capable of playing games for the next 10+ years without issue. Reply
To be honest I'm sure you can play most worthwhile games on the 8600G at 1080p and without any dedicated GPU, seriously.
But in the article I would recommend a 5700X3D/7600 or i5, Anyone recommending quad-cores in 2024 deserves a tinfoil hat. Even my smartphone has 8 cores, a simple browser will saturate the i3's cores.Reply
It's not like that, you'll suffer and want to trash your PC every time you're pre-compiling shaders on this quad-core, and it'll be worse if there's something running in the background, plus, COD runs terribly poorly on quad-core. I recommend at least a 5600 for best stability.Reply
You said most games run fine on that 8600g. Any game with graphics simple enough to run well on such a chip will have no issue compiling shaders on a quad core i3. Reply
"The 8600g can hardly play games outside of 720p..."
That depends quite a bit on the titles. Go back a few years where the demand is lower and the resolution can absolutely go up too 1080p for lots of games. You just have to be realistic and manage your expectations.
Posting the definition of something and still failing to get it (or intentionally so) in an aggressive manner. You do a great service to the stereotypes surrounding people with interest in computer technologies and yourself. Find a cookie and eat it in a vacantly proud manner. You've earned it.Reply
i7-14700k is the only decent value from Intel right now, and the only 14th gen with any real substantial upgrade over the previous gen. For $400 its a good deal, but at this point you'd be buying into a dead-end platform so it's a better consideration for people coming from a 12th gen or weak i3\i5 13th gen.Reply
You don't need to update every 2 years, but if you want you will have options, and at some point in the future when you feel the need you can do this without changing your Mobo.Reply
Why do you want to cripple new CPUs with old mobos? By the time a CPU is showing its age, memory speeds have substantially improved, you have new PCIe implementations, ece.
Imaging gimping an alder lake CPU with DDR3 RAM for instance.
You're better off spending the money to build a decent system and get a useful lifespan out of it then wasting more cash for incremental improvements.
Someone who built a ryzen 1700 system then jumped to the 3700 then 5700 would have been better served building an intel 8700 system then going to a 700x3d system instead. Way more performance and about the same cost. Reply
Nonsense. A 5700X would cost you $200-250. You can keep the same motherboard. All you are really losing is PCIe 4. RAM can be upgraded too. It's been cheap lately. I went from 16GB 3200 to 32GB of 3600.Reply
There are so many improvements in MBs that you quoting only the PCIe generation and RAM compatibility shows how little you know. The VRMs of a MB, for me, are of utter most importance since feeding a CPU like the 13900k/14900k can matter more than the number of M2 slots, for example. The list can go on but if you’re reaching for the top contenders, the truth is you’ll NEED a new MB, when upgrading your CPU otherwise, as previously stated, you’d be limiting its performance. I upgrade my CPU/MB combo once every ~5 years and the generational improvements would make it impossible to fully enjoy a new, state of the art CPU on a 5 year old MB. Reply
Agreed. With the stagnation of CPU performance and the primary apparent means of increasing performance having become an increase in electrical power alongside the widespread adoption of mobile devices as primary (and sometimes only) computing devices, the compulsion to perform CPU upgrades has diminished. Add to that a penchant for CPUs to get soldered onto motherboards, gaming shifting to said mobile devices and console gaming filling an ever more dominant role while laptops shoulder aside desktops and you have a perfect storm. System requirements increases are leading to diminished graphical returns far more than ever. Lots of reasons lay behind it but, even a Core2 CPU is sufficient for compute needs although the underlying platform is largely lacking software support.Reply
My grandfather, while he has a newer laptop, still uses his Core 2 Duo one with Windows 7. It's 1.8 GHz, and runs quite smoothly for ordinary tasks. And that's with a hard disk too.
Concerning performance in general, I remember in the old days, CPUs reached their limits quite soon, and people would lament their computer was slow. But for a long time now, arguably after Sandy Bridge, most computers seem "fast," or ordinary users can't tell the difference; and if there is a difference, it's often hard disk and SSD. SB laid down the principles of proper CPU design, and since then, it has only been refinement, widening, and manufacturing.
One may argue that we are reaching the limits of the current system. A new way of thinking has to be struck out. If we look at today's LLMs and the massive amount of GPU hardware they're running on in warehouses, and compare that with the economy of the brain (20W, I read), doing far more complex computations, we see that the state of the art is orders behind what is possible in Nature. Like ENIAC compared to a smartphone. The computational-energy cost of AI will likely push development.Reply
The GPU render configurations for the various Radeon iGPUs need to be listed and the 760M has 8 RDNA3 CUs across 2 Shader Arrays on the 760M's binning of the full Tape-out that's 12CUs in total at the top end and 6CUs per shader array. So the Render Configuration is Shaders:TMUs:ROPs and for the 760M that's 512:32:16 and there are 4 RBE(Render Back Ends) on the full tape-out at 2 RBEs per shader array for a total of 4 RBEs and 32 ROPs(8 ROPs per RBE) total. And the 760M has half the RBEs disabled compared to the 780M. The TMUs scale with the CUs so the 760M has 32 TMUs to the 780M's 48 TMUs with the 780M having 768 Shaders.
So the iGPU testing for Grand Theft Auto should have been conducted at 1080P to suss out the difference there between the 760M and the 780M as 720P is insufficient there to suss out the difference in Raster performance between the 760M(16 ROPs enabled) and the 780m(32 ROPs enabled).
And iGPUs have to utilize system DRAM as the "VRAM" and so memory speed/bandwidth affects that as well But testing any Radeon higher end iGPUs at just 720P will not properly suss out any differences there in Raster performance as at 720P there's insufficient iGPU resource demand there as that testing shows too close a performance delta between the 760M and the 780M at 720p! Reply
What's happening in the big wide world of desktop is more than simply enthusiast gaming;
Completed my desktop channel inventory update (originally posted January 31) on the question what’s going on with through 2023 desktop upgrade trend and for the prior four months. Leaving July through October 2023 what’s happen since?
All up AMD desktop volume at Ryzen 7000 back through Summit with APUs gains + 5.4% and we’ll take a look at the by generation trend.
All up Intel desktop volume at Raptor Refresh back through Haswell including Atoms back to Bay Trail drops < 7.1% and we’ll take a look at the by generation trend.
In relation to all desktop generation’s replacement market, AMD sustains in the 15.2% to 16.9% share range. Not representative of AMD primary production share where all generation’s share considers AMD taper into the Intel installed base, and in this example, back to Haswell and Bay Trail.
I note current generations share in summary below.
What I’m looking for is at what back generation has trading stopped? My thesis is the Intel Haswell, Skylake, Kaby Lake quad upgrade trend has slowed and channel sales emphasis moves primarily to AMD AM4 Matisse R3K and Vermeer R5, Intel Comet within its own CPU SKUs and too Alder 12th into Raptor 13th.
It's a myth in my opinion that AM5 is the only platform that offers 'stretch' so said future upgradability on new CPU options because it depends where you enter. There is still just as much stretch upgrading from an Intel quad entering at Matisse to Vermeer or at Vermeer and specific Intel Alder to Raptor. In q4 many entered at Comet i5 subject up that specific stack into i7 and i9.
There are many platform upgrade entry points. Why is this important? Tastes and preferences in relation utility value for price performance and of course stretch. Supply elastic pricing continues into summer and the channel will clear everything; desktop, mobile, dGPU anticipating q4 2024 new releases.
Consider AMD and Intel exclusively on by generation channel 'available' inventory holdings.
AMD back to Summit and Raven desktop inventory leaving October 2023 into January 2024;
Ryzen 7K = 29.8% and 24.48% < 16.67% sales trend Ryzen 5K = 2.07% and 2.65% + 21.64% supply and trade in, 2nd half sales < 33% Ryzen 3K = 13.73% and 11.86% < 12.92% entry level purchase, 2nd half sales < 30% Ryzen 2K = 4.88% and 5.11% + 4.7% and 2nd half sales < 20% Ryzen 1K = 6.59% and 6.12% < 7.09% entry level purchases but 2nd half +16%
TR 7K = 0% and 0.99% new entry TR5K = 0.99% and 1.25% + 26.41% supply trend and 2nd half + 47% TR 3K = 2.07% and 2.65% + 28.25% trade in trend and 2nd half + 1.5% TR2K = 0.92% and 0.84% < 8.3% and second half + 9% TR 1K = 0.84% and 0.88% + 4.1%
R8K APU new entry channel data tbd the question is vs. R5, R7 or R8 APU? R5K APU = 8.35% and 9.34% + 11.86% and 2nd half sales < 28% R4K APU = 3.47% and 5.08% + 46.55% trade in and 2nd half sales < 6% R3K APU = 2.65% and 3.96% + 49.5% trade in R2K APU = 2.95% and 9.17% + 210.4% trade in
Intel back to Haswell Inventory leaving October 2023 into January 2024;
14th = 0.42% and 1.7% + 310.25% on primary supply 13th = 6.32% and 6.47% + 2.27% sustaining available volume 12th = 9.33% and 7.34% < 21.36% volume mover and 2nd half sales < 32% 11th = 2.67% and 2.35% < 11.8% and 2nd half sales < 36% 10.5 = 0.04% and 0.04% and flat (Tiger B) 10th = 6.75% and 6.72% < 0.05% and 2nd half sales < 12% 9th = 5.02% and 5.27% + 4.9% and 2nd half sales < 5% 8th = 6.55% and 6.77% + 3.46% and 2nd half < 6% 7th = 9.32% and 10% + 7.3% and 2nd half = flat 6th = 21.02% and 21.26% + 1.2% and 2nd half < 10% 5th = 0.2811% and 0.2783% < 1% 4th Refresh = 9.58% and 8.8% < 8.18% and 2nd half < 25% 4th = 11.29% and 11.07% < 2% and 2nd half < 20%
The volume of Intel all generations desktop that sold off is very large and going by retail sales stats definitively misrepresents the 'whole sales picture'. What the market is actually purchasing and important to not that is the 'world market'.
10th EE = 0.39% and 0.43% + 10% trade in 9th EE = 0.31% and 0.35% + 13.47% trade in 7th EE = 0.65% and 0.73% + 12.56% trade in 5th EE = 0.34% and 0.33% < 3% 4th EE = 0.28% and 0.27% < 1% 3rd EE 0.21% and 0.22% + 7.8%
11th W = 0.03% and 0.05% + 98% significant ‘AVX’ trade in 11th E = 0.57% and 0.63% + 10.3% 10th W = 0.12.4% and 11.8% < 4.15% 10th E = 0.53% and 0.68% + 27.7% significant trade in 9th E = 0.61% and 0.94% + 55.5% significant trade in E3 v6 = 0.96% and 1.05% + 9.5% E3 v5 = 2.22% and 1.95% < 12.07% utility price performance buyers E3 v3 = 2.88% and 2.98% + 3.5%
There is no Tremont desktop in the channel Gemini = 0.45% and 0.42% < 7.55% world market price buyer Apollo = 0.19% and 0.18% > 7.39% home client low price Braswell = 0.21% and 0.17% < 21.5% world market Bay Trail = 0.48% and 0.34% < 28.31% world market
2023 was a block buster PC desktop buying year and into summer price drops will move available inventory that is NOT new production. Next eight months is all about clearing recent generation’s inventories for capital recovery and will extend too mobile there’s a lot of 'recent' back generation inventory to clear.
Server and application specific specified products is where the revenue potential for margin continues to play.
On platform stretch AM3/4 Ryzen 3/5K and Alder to Raptor are the foremost options on volume followed by R7K.
On recent generations share today (January 31, 2024) in the channel;
I would like to see the cheapest GPU's in the APU list. I can't believe I am seeing GeForce 1050ti numbers here in 2024. That card used to cost just over 100 bucks new. Five years ago.Reply
Sigh... it is always the same thing: processors are compared at 1080p, because then you see the difference most clearly. However, I am looking to built a exclusively 4k(+) VR game PC around a 7900 XTX for my Quest3. The graphics card at cannot render stuff at much higher than say 120 fps, whether I ran on a 7950 3D processor or a lowly 5600. I wonder whether I would see more than a few % difference between the two. Has anybody any insights as to a good CPU for 4K gaming? Reply
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meacupla - Friday, February 2, 2024 - link
Your graphs lack the 7600X.Then again, Anandtech only benches with 5200MT/s RAM, so I doubt the difference between 7600X and 8600G would show up.
There is also the argument to be made that GPU makes more of a difference than CPU, so long as the CPU has a minimum of 4 cores. Reply
TheinsanegamerN - Friday, February 2, 2024 - link
It's terrible when you consider how badly kneecapped the 8600g is. If you EVER want to expand in the future, youll need a different CPU to get proper PCIe support. Absolute insanity. ReplyFWhitTrampoline - Saturday, February 3, 2024 - link
AMD's Ryzen Mobile Platform I/O connectivity support pales in comparison to Intel's mobile platform support for I/O and PCIe Lanes and PCIe generation support. And the reason that Ryzen 8000G's PCIe lane support is so lacking is because that's just the mobile APUs packaged for socket/AM5 MBs. And just look how long it took AMD to get USB4 supported and even the earlier USB standards supported. The Tech Press appears to be ignoring listing the Desktop APUs platform I/O support for the most part and that's a definite differentiating factor to be included when doing any "Best" CPU/APU/SOC comparison/roundup.The Tech Press also loves to use Blender 3D CPU cores only Cycles rendering to test CPU cores only and really Blender 3D's CPU cores only Cycles rendering is the fallback in case there's no Cycles iGPU/dGPU capable rendering devices discovered by Blender 3D. So Blender 3D's iGPU/dGPU accelerated Cycles rendering can only be enabled if there is iGPU/dGPU compute API supported as the Cycles Renderer supports Ray Tracing and Ray Tracing on any iGPU or dGPU is a GPU compute workload. So Blender 3D used to support OpenCL as the GPU Compute API but ever since Blender 3D 3.0/Later editions arrived the Blender Foundation dropped supporting OpenCL as the iGPU/dGPU compute API and Blender 3.0/later only supports CUDA and Apple's metal. And AMD has its ROCm/HIP to take the CUDA/PTX/whatever and convert that to a form that can be executed on Radeon iGPUs and dGPUs but Currently ROCm/HIP is not supported for Radeon iGPUs and even the Radeon consumer dGPUs have very limited ROCm/HIP supported. Now Intel's got its OneAPI/Level-0 to do the same for Intel's iGPUs/dGPUs as AMD's ROCm/HIP but unlike AMD Intel's OneAPI/Level-0 is supported on Intel's iGPUs and dGPUs.
So some very important creative workloads on Windows and Linux utilize iGPU and dGPU compute to accelerate Ray Tracing Calculations and other Calculations on GPUs. And Ray Tracing Calculations can be done on CPU cores and GPU shader cores and now there's even dedicated Ray Tracing cores/units on some newer iGPU/dGPUs to do the Ray Tracing calculations more quickly. But in order to do general math workloads on iGPUs and dGPUs for some Applications requires either OpenCL or CUDA and for Apple that's Metal that's both a Graphics and Compute API for Apple Silicon/Earlier. The Blender Foundation uses CUDA for Non Apple hardware now instead of OpenCL and so that lack of Radeon iGPU ROCm/HIP support affects Blender GPU accelerated Cycles rendering. And so for AMD's APUs there's only the CPU cores Cycles rendering while for Intel the OneAPI/Level-0 is supported for Intel's iGPUs/dGPUs and works on Windows and Linux.
Reply
Bruzzone - Wednesday, February 7, 2024 - link
good data, mb Replyalamoscouts - Wednesday, February 28, 2024 - link
Ram speed differences are typically rather minute for most things including games ReplyNextGen_Gamer - Friday, February 2, 2024 - link
Correction to be made to the article: as far as I know, Phoenix silicon is not Zen 4+, just regular Zen 4, and Zen 4+ does not exist in any way.It would also be good to note that the Ryzen AI NPU in the Ryzen 8000G desktop is the "same" one as the Ryzen 8000 mobile series: 16 TOPs, up from originally 10 TOPs. All of these (8000G/8000 mobile/7000 mobile) Phoenix chips are the same, so either AMD increased the clocksped of the NPU in the 2024 releases or enabled more subunits that maybe were originally disabled for yield purposes. Reply
Ryan Smith - Friday, February 2, 2024 - link
"Correction to be made to the article: as far as I know, Phoenix silicon is not Zen 4+, just regular Zen 4, and Zen 4+ does not exist in any way."Thanks. That was an editing error and has been fixed.
"Phoenix chips are the same, so either AMD increased the clocksped of the NPU in the 2024 releases or enabled more subunits that maybe were originally disabled for yield purposes."
This is correct. The NPU is the same. AMD just significantly bumped up its clockspeeds for the Ryzen Mobile 8040 (and 8000G) family. Reply
NextGen_Gamer - Friday, February 2, 2024 - link
Awesome - thanks Ryan! There's not a huge market currently for the NPU (Intel or AMD or otherwise) on Windows 11, but as always, that will change in time. I'm actually thinking within a couple years, ReplyBruzzone - Wednesday, February 7, 2024 - link
So the NPU is DSP embedded in processing fabric? Someone please let us know what an NPU processing block entails in terms of ASIC/mcu . . . appreciate. mb ReplyTheinsanegamerN - Friday, February 2, 2024 - link
The best value is a terrible pick. The 8600g can hardly play games outside of 720p, and you can easily get a i3+1660/30506g combo that will obliterate it in performance and future upgradeability. ReplyR7 - Friday, February 2, 2024 - link
Id rather go with 7500F for future upgradeability as even the current gen i3 sits in a dead end platform. ReplyTheinsanegamerN - Monday, February 5, 2024 - link
May as well offer up a ryzen 3300, since both seem to be unobtanium.For budget users, buying a new CPU every 2-3 years is out of the question. Most of these guys are still using pre skylake quad cores. Buying multiple new CPUs for a platform is the realm of tech enthusiasts with tons of money to burn.
Not to mention, you could always get an i7/i9 to replace that i3 later , and said CPU will be capable of playing games for the next 10+ years without issue. Reply
Dante Verizon - Sunday, February 4, 2024 - link
To be honest I'm sure you can play most worthwhile games on the 8600G at 1080p and without any dedicated GPU, seriously.But in the article I would recommend a 5700X3D/7600 or i5, Anyone recommending quad-cores in 2024 deserves a tinfoil hat. Even my smartphone has 8 cores, a simple browser will saturate the i3's cores. Reply
TheinsanegamerN - Monday, February 5, 2024 - link
The CPU/GPU combos you have offered are already more expensive then the 8600g, making them a totally non starter.If you think most worthwhile games can be played without issue on the 8600g, got news for you, those same games all work fine on the i3 as well. Reply
Terry_Craig - Monday, February 5, 2024 - link
It's not like that, you'll suffer and want to trash your PC every time you're pre-compiling shaders on this quad-core, and it'll be worse if there's something running in the background, plus, COD runs terribly poorly on quad-core. I recommend at least a 5600 for best stability. ReplyTheinsanegamerN - Tuesday, February 6, 2024 - link
You said most games run fine on that 8600g. Any game with graphics simple enough to run well on such a chip will have no issue compiling shaders on a quad core i3. ReplyThunder 57 - Wednesday, February 7, 2024 - link
Agreed. Four cores aren't a reliable option. ReplyPeachNCream - Tuesday, February 6, 2024 - link
"The 8600g can hardly play games outside of 720p..."That depends quite a bit on the titles. Go back a few years where the demand is lower and the resolution can absolutely go up too 1080p for lots of games. You just have to be realistic and manage your expectations.
"...obliterate it..."
Webster is your friend. Reply
TheinsanegamerN - Tuesday, February 6, 2024 - link
Why are you spending hundreds of dollars to build a new PC to play games from 2016? Just use the older hardware you already have at that point."Webster is your friend."
Obliterate: to destroy, eliminate. Common vernacular for something significantly outperforming something else includes "obliterate".
Maybe dont suggest someone read a dictionary when you yourself do not understand your own argument. Reply
PeachNCream - Saturday, February 10, 2024 - link
Posting the definition of something and still failing to get it (or intentionally so) in an aggressive manner. You do a great service to the stereotypes surrounding people with interest in computer technologies and yourself. Find a cookie and eat it in a vacantly proud manner. You've earned it. ReplySamus - Friday, February 2, 2024 - link
i7-14700k is the only decent value from Intel right now, and the only 14th gen with any real substantial upgrade over the previous gen. For $400 its a good deal, but at this point you'd be buying into a dead-end platform so it's a better consideration for people coming from a 12th gen or weak i3\i5 13th gen. ReplyTheinsanegamerN - Monday, February 5, 2024 - link
Most people dont buy new CPUs every 2 years. CPUs age like wine, GPUs age like milk.You buy an i7 and you'll be at the 20th gen core before you are even worried about an upgrade. Reply
Terry_Craig - Monday, February 5, 2024 - link
You don't need to update every 2 years, but if you want you will have options, and at some point in the future when you feel the need you can do this without changing your Mobo. ReplyTheinsanegamerN - Tuesday, February 6, 2024 - link
Why do you want to cripple new CPUs with old mobos? By the time a CPU is showing its age, memory speeds have substantially improved, you have new PCIe implementations, ece.Imaging gimping an alder lake CPU with DDR3 RAM for instance.
You're better off spending the money to build a decent system and get a useful lifespan out of it then wasting more cash for incremental improvements.
Someone who built a ryzen 1700 system then jumped to the 3700 then 5700 would have been better served building an intel 8700 system then going to a 700x3d system instead. Way more performance and about the same cost. Reply
Dante Verizon - Tuesday, February 6, 2024 - link
PCIe5.0 + DDR5, are you insane ? ReplyThunder 57 - Wednesday, February 7, 2024 - link
Nonsense. A 5700X would cost you $200-250. You can keep the same motherboard. All you are really losing is PCIe 4. RAM can be upgraded too. It's been cheap lately. I went from 16GB 3200 to 32GB of 3600. Replyliquid_c - Saturday, February 10, 2024 - link
There are so many improvements in MBs that you quoting only the PCIe generation and RAM compatibility shows how little you know.The VRMs of a MB, for me, are of utter most importance since feeding a CPU like the 13900k/14900k can matter more than the number of M2 slots, for example.
The list can go on but if you’re reaching for the top contenders, the truth is you’ll NEED a new MB, when upgrading your CPU otherwise, as previously stated, you’d be limiting its performance.
I upgrade my CPU/MB combo once every ~5 years and the generational improvements would make it impossible to fully enjoy a new, state of the art CPU on a 5 year old MB. Reply
GeoffreyA - Monday, February 5, 2024 - link
Post-Sandy Bridge, CPUs are going for a long, long time. ReplyPeachNCream - Saturday, February 10, 2024 - link
Agreed. With the stagnation of CPU performance and the primary apparent means of increasing performance having become an increase in electrical power alongside the widespread adoption of mobile devices as primary (and sometimes only) computing devices, the compulsion to perform CPU upgrades has diminished. Add to that a penchant for CPUs to get soldered onto motherboards, gaming shifting to said mobile devices and console gaming filling an ever more dominant role while laptops shoulder aside desktops and you have a perfect storm. System requirements increases are leading to diminished graphical returns far more than ever. Lots of reasons lay behind it but, even a Core2 CPU is sufficient for compute needs although the underlying platform is largely lacking software support. ReplyGeoffreyA - Sunday, February 11, 2024 - link
My grandfather, while he has a newer laptop, still uses his Core 2 Duo one with Windows 7. It's 1.8 GHz, and runs quite smoothly for ordinary tasks. And that's with a hard disk too.Concerning performance in general, I remember in the old days, CPUs reached their limits quite soon, and people would lament their computer was slow. But for a long time now, arguably after Sandy Bridge, most computers seem "fast," or ordinary users can't tell the difference; and if there is a difference, it's often hard disk and SSD. SB laid down the principles of proper CPU design, and since then, it has only been refinement, widening, and manufacturing.
One may argue that we are reaching the limits of the current system. A new way of thinking has to be struck out. If we look at today's LLMs and the massive amount of GPU hardware they're running on in warehouses, and compare that with the economy of the brain (20W, I read), doing far more complex computations, we see that the state of the art is orders behind what is possible in Nature. Like ENIAC compared to a smartphone. The computational-energy cost of AI will likely push development. Reply
FWhitTrampoline - Saturday, February 3, 2024 - link
"AMD Ryzen 5 8600G (6C/12T)"The GPU render configurations for the various Radeon iGPUs need to be listed and the 760M has 8 RDNA3 CUs across 2 Shader Arrays on the 760M's binning of the full Tape-out that's 12CUs in total at the top end and 6CUs per shader array. So the Render Configuration is Shaders:TMUs:ROPs and for the 760M that's 512:32:16 and there are 4 RBE(Render Back Ends) on the full tape-out at 2 RBEs per shader array for a total of 4 RBEs and 32 ROPs(8 ROPs per RBE) total. And the 760M has half the RBEs disabled compared to the 780M. The TMUs scale with the CUs so the 760M has 32 TMUs to the 780M's 48 TMUs with the 780M having 768 Shaders.
So the iGPU testing for Grand Theft Auto should have been conducted at 1080P to suss out the difference there between the 760M and the 780M as 720P is insufficient there to suss out the difference in Raster performance between the 760M(16 ROPs enabled) and the 780m(32 ROPs enabled).
And iGPUs have to utilize system DRAM as the "VRAM" and so memory speed/bandwidth affects that as well But testing any Radeon higher end iGPUs at just 720P will not properly suss out any differences there in Raster performance as at 720P there's insufficient iGPU resource demand there as that testing shows too close a performance delta between the 760M and the 780M at 720p! Reply
Bruzzone - Wednesday, February 7, 2024 - link
What's happening in the big wide world of desktop is more than simply enthusiast gaming;Completed my desktop channel inventory update (originally posted January 31) on the question what’s going on with through 2023 desktop upgrade trend and for the prior four months. Leaving July through October 2023 what’s happen since?
All up AMD desktop volume at Ryzen 7000 back through Summit with APUs gains + 5.4% and we’ll take a look at the by generation trend.
All up Intel desktop volume at Raptor Refresh back through Haswell including Atoms back to Bay Trail drops < 7.1% and we’ll take a look at the by generation trend.
In relation to all desktop generation’s replacement market, AMD sustains in the 15.2% to 16.9% share range. Not representative of AMD primary production share where all generation’s share considers AMD taper into the Intel installed base, and in this example, back to Haswell and Bay Trail.
I note current generations share in summary below.
What I’m looking for is at what back generation has trading stopped? My thesis is the Intel Haswell, Skylake, Kaby Lake quad upgrade trend has slowed and channel sales emphasis moves primarily to AMD AM4 Matisse R3K and Vermeer R5, Intel Comet within its own CPU SKUs and too Alder 12th into Raptor 13th.
It's a myth in my opinion that AM5 is the only platform that offers 'stretch' so said future upgradability on new CPU options because it depends where you enter. There is still just as much stretch upgrading from an Intel quad entering at Matisse to Vermeer or at Vermeer and specific Intel Alder to Raptor. In q4 many entered at Comet i5 subject up that specific stack into i7 and i9.
There are many platform upgrade entry points. Why is this important? Tastes and preferences in relation utility value for price performance and of course stretch. Supply elastic pricing continues into summer and the channel will clear everything; desktop, mobile, dGPU anticipating q4 2024 new releases.
Consider AMD and Intel exclusively on by generation channel 'available' inventory holdings.
AMD back to Summit and Raven desktop inventory leaving October 2023 into January 2024;
Ryzen 7K = 29.8% and 24.48% < 16.67% sales trend
Ryzen 5K = 2.07% and 2.65% + 21.64% supply and trade in, 2nd half sales < 33%
Ryzen 3K = 13.73% and 11.86% < 12.92% entry level purchase, 2nd half sales < 30%
Ryzen 2K = 4.88% and 5.11% + 4.7% and 2nd half sales < 20%
Ryzen 1K = 6.59% and 6.12% < 7.09% entry level purchases but 2nd half +16%
TR 7K = 0% and 0.99% new entry
TR5K = 0.99% and 1.25% + 26.41% supply trend and 2nd half + 47%
TR 3K = 2.07% and 2.65% + 28.25% trade in trend and 2nd half + 1.5%
TR2K = 0.92% and 0.84% < 8.3% and second half + 9%
TR 1K = 0.84% and 0.88% + 4.1%
R8K APU new entry channel data tbd the question is vs. R5, R7 or R8 APU?
R5K APU = 8.35% and 9.34% + 11.86% and 2nd half sales < 28%
R4K APU = 3.47% and 5.08% + 46.55% trade in and 2nd half sales < 6%
R3K APU = 2.65% and 3.96% + 49.5% trade in
R2K APU = 2.95% and 9.17% + 210.4% trade in
Intel back to Haswell Inventory leaving October 2023 into January 2024;
14th = 0.42% and 1.7% + 310.25% on primary supply
13th = 6.32% and 6.47% + 2.27% sustaining available volume
12th = 9.33% and 7.34% < 21.36% volume mover and 2nd half sales < 32%
11th = 2.67% and 2.35% < 11.8% and 2nd half sales < 36%
10.5 = 0.04% and 0.04% and flat (Tiger B)
10th = 6.75% and 6.72% < 0.05% and 2nd half sales < 12%
9th = 5.02% and 5.27% + 4.9% and 2nd half sales < 5%
8th = 6.55% and 6.77% + 3.46% and 2nd half < 6%
7th = 9.32% and 10% + 7.3% and 2nd half = flat
6th = 21.02% and 21.26% + 1.2% and 2nd half < 10%
5th = 0.2811% and 0.2783% < 1%
4th Refresh = 9.58% and 8.8% < 8.18% and 2nd half < 25%
4th = 11.29% and 11.07% < 2% and 2nd half < 20%
The volume of Intel all generations desktop that sold off is very large and going by retail sales stats definitively misrepresents the 'whole sales picture'. What the market is actually purchasing and important to not that is the 'world market'.
10th EE = 0.39% and 0.43% + 10% trade in
9th EE = 0.31% and 0.35% + 13.47% trade in
7th EE = 0.65% and 0.73% + 12.56% trade in
5th EE = 0.34% and 0.33% < 3%
4th EE = 0.28% and 0.27% < 1%
3rd EE 0.21% and 0.22% + 7.8%
11th W = 0.03% and 0.05% + 98% significant ‘AVX’ trade in
11th E = 0.57% and 0.63% + 10.3%
10th W = 0.12.4% and 11.8% < 4.15%
10th E = 0.53% and 0.68% + 27.7% significant trade in
9th E = 0.61% and 0.94% + 55.5% significant trade in
E3 v6 = 0.96% and 1.05% + 9.5%
E3 v5 = 2.22% and 1.95% < 12.07% utility price performance buyers
E3 v3 = 2.88% and 2.98% + 3.5%
There is no Tremont desktop in the channel
Gemini = 0.45% and 0.42% < 7.55% world market price buyer
Apollo = 0.19% and 0.18% > 7.39% home client low price
Braswell = 0.21% and 0.17% < 21.5% world market
Bay Trail = 0.48% and 0.34% < 28.31% world market
2023 was a block buster PC desktop buying year and into summer price drops will move available inventory that is NOT new production. Next eight months is all about clearing recent generation’s inventories for capital recovery and will extend too mobile there’s a lot of 'recent' back generation inventory to clear.
Server and application specific specified products is where the revenue potential for margin continues to play.
On platform stretch AM3/4 Ryzen 3/5K and Alder to Raptor are the foremost options on volume followed by R7K.
On recent generations share today (January 31, 2024) in the channel;
AMD R7K, R5K, TR7K, TR5K = 37%
Intel 14th, 13th, 12th = 63%
AMD adding R3K, R5 APU and TR3K = 35%
Intel Adding all Rocket and Comet = 65%
This share split is what the channel has decided on as a regulating mechanism currently for desktop on bundled trade sales.
Mike Bruzzone, Camp Marketing Reply
Foeketijn - Thursday, February 8, 2024 - link
I would like to see the cheapest GPU's in the APU list.I can't believe I am seeing GeForce 1050ti numbers here in 2024.
That card used to cost just over 100 bucks new. Five years ago. Reply
batteries4ever - Monday, February 26, 2024 - link
Sigh... it is always the same thing: processors are compared at 1080p, because then you see the difference most clearly.However, I am looking to built a exclusively 4k(+) VR game PC around a 7900 XTX for my Quest3.
The graphics card at cannot render stuff at much higher than say 120 fps, whether I ran on a 7950 3D processor or a lowly 5600. I wonder whether I would see more than a few % difference between the two. Has anybody any insights as to a good CPU for 4K gaming? Reply
alamoscouts - Wednesday, February 28, 2024 - link
Be nice to see either the i7 13700K or KF in the analysis Reply